Thursday, September 30, 2004

Hate Crimes vs. Crimes

egb3r: So, there is more racial idiocy at UVa.
DCD AEPi: well, it's can't be any worse than the African City in Detroit
egb3r: Well, Dean Turner is involved, so you never know.
egb3r: Go to and read the first post.
egb3r: Or, go to the Cav Daily website and look for articles.
DCD AEPi: so what's your issue with this? actually, I think it's pretty sensible to make such a form of intolerance an honor violation
egb3r: Because, as with hate crime legislation, they are making it illegal to have a thought.
egb3r: Any action that is not lying, cheating or stealing is for judish....not honor.
DCD AEPi: this isn't about a thought, it is about vandalism and abuse
DCD AEPi: what is honor, having respect for yourself as well as others...
DCD AEPi: being intolerant of races , genders or religion is w/o honor
egb3r: So you're making the penalty for feeling a certain way and committing a crime much greater than feeling another way and committing the same crime.
egb3r: Let's say I'm a member of David Duke's European American Rights Society (or whatever the hell the name of that silly organization is)....
DCD AEPi: the bottom line is the crime is racially motivated..
egb3r: One night I'm walking around drunk, and for literally no reason whatsoever, I decide to throw a rock through a car window....
egb3r: I get caught....
DCD AEPi: you don't write "nigger" on a car because you love black people
egb3r: Under the current rules, I would get whatever punishment the judiciary committee decided to mete out....
egb3r: Under the changed rules, if it turned out that the person who owned the car was black, I would be brought up on honor charges and thrown out of school simply for having an opinion....
DCD AEPi: throwing a rock has no symbolism to racism
egb3r: How do you know it wasn't a hoax? Hate-crime hoaxes are about three times as prevalent as actual hate crimes.
egb3r: (And I hate that I actually dignified their existence by quoting a statistic that recognizes them).
DCD AEPi: maybe it is a hoax, that's why things have to be proven...
DCD AEPi: no one is saying the Lundy or the Adkins crimes happened by whites or any other race..
egb3r: So why should the University be taking any action until it is proven?
DCD AEPi: so hence no one has actually be expelled from the University for those "acts"
egb3r: Until a hood wearing KKK member is caught, why should the honor system be changed?DCD AEPi: why not take action now against potential attacks, reminds me of an argument you had about why going into Iraq was the right thing to do
DCD AEPi: until WMDs were found, why should we have gone into Iraq
egb3r: WMD's were found....over and over and over again....
DCD AEPi: same argument, you just took a different side
DCD AEPi: what are you talking about, the last UN search there was nothing found
DCD AEPi: during the initial strike..
DCD AEPi: nothing was found in saddam's labs or palaces
DCD AEPi: and if you're going to use history searches, I know if necessary, people could find proof of lynching in the UVa area at one point or another
egb3r: 1981 Israel blows up the Osiris reactor, stopping Hussein from getting the bomb....1981 Hussein gasses the Kurds....1991 Hussein admits to possessing massive stores of chemical and biological weapons as part of the treaty that ended GWI....1996 Hussein's son-in-law defects and reveals the secret locations of Hussein's ongoing weapons programs that were in clear violation of the treaty.....1998 Hussein kicks out UN Inspectors....
DCD AEPi: but the basis of going into Iraq now was to find WMDs, and they found nothing, but you still endorse US military action against them...
egb3r: In the last 10 years cite an incident at UVa that was actual a proven hate crime other than the band of black youths wandering around beating up white college students because they were white?egb3r: (which, by the way, resulted in no hate-crime charges, despite Virginia and Federal law compelling those charges to be brought)
DCD AEPi: 10 years is nothing man....if there was any sort of history from 1900 through now, what makes anything different in terms of preventative actions?
DCD AEPi: you said many hate crimes may be hoaxes..
egb3r: They are in fact hoaxes.
DCD AEPi: what if many aren't reported like rape victims
egb3r: It's not a thought....either there are witnesses who see the alleged victims committing the acts, or the perpetrator confesses.....
DCD AEPi: most rapes don't have witnesses and they happen...
DCD AEPi: but I just don't understand how you can't equated this to Iraq...not saying they are on the same scale
DCD AEPi: but the fact remains, barebones that the actions are doing the same thing
DCD AEPi: trying to protect one set of people against the potential actions of another
egb3r: Iraq was saying "definitive action needs to be taken to prevent this potential danger, that we have no reason to believe doesn't exist, from happening"....
DCD AEPi: I have no reason to believe racist actions don't take place at UVa
egb3r: Hate crime laws say "the current penalty for a crime needs to be made more harsh in these specific situations to prevent this potential danger that may or may not exist"
egb3r: Big difference.
DCD AEPi: I myself have never been a victim, but who am I to say it doesn't happen?
egb3r: There are assholes everywhere you go....but should being an asshole be illegal?
DCD AEPi: do assholes single out people based on their color, or religion or gender, no, they are just being assholes, but when your focus is directed upon a person based on one defining characteristic, of course penalties should be harsher
egb3r: The guys at SAE, were definitely ass-holes....when they called Steve "boy" I don't know if they were being racist or just do you prove it?
DCD AEPi: and we did have plenty of reason to believe the threat didn't exist, weapons were not found by UN inspectors
egb3r: Shouldn't we be more concerned that the crime happened period? Does it matter that someone got beat up because they were black, or does it matter that someone got beat up?
egb3r: Weapons also weren't found between 1991 and 1994 (96?) until an Iraqi scientist defected with all of his notes on what programs were active and where they were....
DCD AEPi: "boy" is just that, a word, some people might find it offensive, other might not, but there is no slippery slope on nigger, kike, chink, spic, etc....
egb3r: The same UN inspectors didn't find any evidence of a nuclear program in North Korea, and we all see how that one turned out...
DCD AEPi: I think the line is clearly drawn
egb3r: Fine....let's say they called him nigger....would that make them racists, or just assholes looking for the most convenient way to get under his skin?
egb3r: And, even if they were racists, would getting into a fight with him in that situation be a hate crime?
DCD AEPi: if someone just said something, no, because that's simply a mind game, but if someone attacked or defaced my property, which includes my body, yes it's a hate crime
DCD AEPi: some people use that word because they simply don't know any better..not making it right
DCD AEPi: it does matter if someone got beat up of another race, I wouldn't tolerate a gang of blacks that beat up a white dude
egb3r: Well, then you should be all kinds of mad at people in C'ville cause they rallied around a group of black HS youths who beat up six whites (and an Asian they thought was white) because they were white....three of the members even admitted to this...
egb3r: But the reaction of the C'ville community was to attempt to "understand what led to those boys doing what they did" and there are still others who think that blacks are incapable of committing a hate crime...
DCD AEPi: I feel hate crimes can be committed against any race..
DCD AEPi: just because you're in the minority doesn't allow exemption for intolerance and ignorance..
DCD AEPi: I think this amendment to the honor code would be better accepted if it was made known that this isn't about protecting blacks, or Hispanics or Asians, it's about protecting equal people, from those that seem to think based on a characteristic we are not
egb3r: Regardless of what it is made known, in practice it can, and probably will, be abused.
egb3r: Why not move all vandalism and abuse charges to the honor system?
DCD AEPi: what's not abused until a series of checks and balances are worked out..
egb3r: If it is that egregious of a crime, why not let anyone get away with it?
DCD AEPi: nothing is perfect the first time it rolls off the assembly line
DCD AEPi: my check is there has to be solid proof that this is a hate crime, if someone writes slut on a girl's dorm room door, I think that's just as bad...
egb3r: I ask again, why not just move all vandalism and physical abuse over to the honor system?
egb3r: Why is some kind of abuse different than other kinds of abuse? Why was Richard Smith beating up that kid (I forgot his name) any different than someone allegedly beating up Daisy Lundy?
DCD AEPi: because sometime people fight and do things under the influence of other you said, if you're drunk, that's not an honor violation, that's just being stupid
DCD AEPi: what's the Richard smith story?
egb3r: You don't remember? He and a few friends beat up some first year (I think I was a third year and you were a fourth year at the time).....judish threw them out of school...
DCD AEPi: when I got into a fight last december, the guy attacked me because he was drunk, it was clear to everyone..he wasn't of sound mind
DCD AEPi: was he the gay guy?
egb3r: However, Richard Smith's dad is Fred Smith, who happens to be the founder of they sued the school, and the school caved and let the kids back in.
egb3r: He might have been gay, I don't remember.
egb3r: But I don't think they beat him up because he was gay....they beat him up because they were acting completely immature.
DCD AEPi: I’m 90% sure the kid they beat up was gay
DCD AEPi: to be honest, I don't want to comment on this, because, if the story as I heard it, with the student being gay, then potentially, it was an attack because the kid was gay..
DCD AEPi: I would have to research to be able to make a point one way or another
DCD AEPi: but let's say they were just acting immature, there is a catalyst for everything
DCD AEPi: be it alcohol, drugs, or someone expressing a thought that lead to this attack
egb3r: I have a more fundamental question for you.....
egb3r: You and I are walking down the street....
DCD AEPi: and not saying they should have beat up the kid, but if it was based on some hate based motive, yes it is worse than just being a dumbass
egb3r: A white supremacist comes up to us with a gun....
egb3r: He shoots you because you are black....
egb3r: He shoots me because I'm with you....
egb3r: Why should the penalty for killing you be worse than the penalty for killing me?
DCD AEPi: it shouldn't because your death was race based as well, for lack of a better term, you would be consider a n-lover, for your association
DCD AEPi: and I think the penalty should be just as stiff
DCD AEPi: AND....we could also base your death on being jewish as well...which is a religious based hate crime
egb3r: Why don't we have the penalty be just as stiff as it is for the guy who runs someone over while drunk driving as it is for the guy who kills his wife when he finds her in bed with another man as it is for the guy who shoots a rival drug dealer? Why aren't all deaths equal?
egb3r: How does the insane white supremacist know I'm jewish?
DCD AEPi: because this country doesn't have a history of people getting drunk to purposely run each other over, the guy who finds his adulterous wife is supposed to understand the legal system has been designed for him to get compensation in this situation if he were to stay level headed, and as for drug dealers, not saying I abide by this, but most law enforcement figures will say, hey, that guy did us a favor, that's one less drug dealer out there..
DCD AEPi: the jewish thing was a side point, maybe he heard me say your last name but regardless, killing you for being with me is a hate crime...he is devaluing you because you have a friendship with someone he is ignorant of
egb3r: Does it really matter why he killed me, or just that he did?
DCD AEPi: no and yes..
egb3r: As far as I'm aware, we increase penalties in this country for a few reasons, but most of them have to do with the severity of the crime....
DCD AEPi: a life is a life...but...because of the history of this country, you can't take that for granted
egb3r: We have the death penalty for pre-meditated murders because the killer went out and planned how to kill this person, not why he did it...
egb3r: WE have the death penalty for cop killers because cops are out on the front lines, getting shot at on a regular basis and purposefully put themselves in harms also doesn't matter if the killer knew the victim was a cop, or shot him intentionally because he was a just matters that he killed a cop.
egb3r: What hate crimes do is make thought illegal, and I can never get behind that.
DCD AEPi: if we went to germany....and a neo nazi party jumped you and a wave of attacks on jews began taking place, and they were looked at as "normal" crimes, wouldn't you be worried that a nazi uprising were taking place? wouldn't you want to prevent that?
egb3r: Yes, I'd want to prevent that by putting the people who jumped in jail for assault or murder, and whatever other crimes they commit....
egb3r: It's not like they are going to just get a slap on the wrist if these new laws aren't in place.
DCD AEPi: but it doesn't further the point that what they are doing is wrong for reasons X,Y and Z
DCD AEPi: and in a county with a background of persecuting jews for no good reason, wouldn't you be concerned that if it happened once, it could potentially happen again?
egb3r: If they don't know that already, why would the harsher punishment change that?
egb3r: I don't hold out hope for neo-nazi's suddenly finding Jesus and realizing how stupid and wrong they are....
egb3r: And there are already punishments in place for the crimes they commit....
DCD AEPi: but it's not for the now, this is for the future..egb3r: If they are going to commit them, a harsher penalty won't deter them.
DCD AEPi: why don't we steal eric..egb3r: Because it's wrong.
DCD AEPi: because we were taught not to steal, and that it was wrong..
DCD AEPi: if people aren't taught that attacking another human simply based on race, religion, etc, they may not know it's wrong
egb3r: You hit the nail on the head....stealing is's not that stealing from someone who doesn't look like you is worse than stealing from someone who does....stealing is wrong in general.
DCD AEPi: they might feel they are being cheated and that by killing one Asian, they are helping their children have a better future
egb3r: I really hope you're joking.
DCD AEPi: no I’m not, people who commit these crimes are ass backwards to begin withegb3r: So you're making it illegal to be ass backwards.
DCD AEPi: I’m making it illegal to kill someone for ass backwards reasons
egb3r: No, it's already illegal to kill someone.
egb3r: You're making it more illegal...and the only reason you're making it more illegal is because they are ass backwards...
egb3r: Hence, you are making it illegal to be assbackwards.
DCD AEPi: but some of those crimes are unintentional, most aren't premeditated, if you are killing someone for the simple fact that that person's background is taking your jobs, then that in my opinion is a worse crime
egb3r: Why is it worse? Isn't the result the same? The victim isn't any more or less dead.
DCD AEPi: it worse because of the thought behind thought is one thing, acting irrationally based on that thought is another
egb3r: So it's okay to act irrationally in general, but not to act irrationally based on an irrational thought?
DCD AEPi: if being irrational doesn't cause harm to others, sure, act irrational
DCD AEPi: look, let's get back to basics, I’m not sure how much history about your own family's struggle with bigotry, and if you have heard stories that may have directly affected your fam in Germany, but I have heard some stories from my great grandparents, my great grandfather once told me a story about growing up in the South, and one white kid yelled to him saying "hey nigger!" and he yelled back "hey salt cracker!" and the white kid yelled back, "a cracker is good to eat, a nigger is good to beat!"
DCD AEPi: that mentality to me shows that hate based crimes were taught and people felt as if these crimes were acceptable based on who they were against, and I'll be damned if me, or my future family members have to endure anything close to that


Blogger dlc said...

This one, Blank and I have talked about before. Here's my $0.02. First of all, hate crimes are punished if you commit a crime with a prejudicial motive. The thought of being racist alone is not illegal, therefore, you are not being punished for you thoughts. In our society, motives do warrant different severities of crimes. Voluntary vs. involuntary murder are punished and handled very differently. Possession and possession with intent to distribute are just as drastically different. You cannot even consider pre-meditation without motive even if you have the murder on tape. Beyond the evident argument, we as a society believe that we have different degrees of morality. Otherwise we wouldn't have differing degrees of the same crime. Otherwise we wouldn't have a varying punishments for the exact same crimes. In order to distinguish between the different levels, we have to establish criteria. Each crime has different criteria, and different weighting of that criteria to determine severity. Along with circumstance and regretfullness(another thought), motive is one of the major criteria.

As for your other criticism, just like the act of the crime, motive must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. You can charge and label crimes hate crimes and the such, but convicting requires the same scrutiny and same burden proof as do any other facet of a conviction.

October 5, 2004 at 12:09 AM  

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